Tulpa.info - tulpa-discussion

There are certain factors that you can mark as common in any data set

Literally none of this is making any serious point against the fact that the brain takes weeks to months to learn new behaviors, whether it is an internal system of thought or a physical behavior - and this has been demonstrated repeatedly, whereas there hasn't been a substantive claim of this being established faster.

Most asians typically have dark hair, dark eyes and dark skin

9:04 PM

ok noted (edited)

9:05 PM

most tulpas will be somewhat like their hosts

9:05 PM

ok, reasonable

um, raises hand what about my point of nailing someone's mental model through observation/conversation?

Nor does it make any serious point against the problems of roleplaying and establishing the pattern of pretending that a tulpa is acting/speaking... when it isn't - and the reinforcement of that behavior is far more likely to simply make a roleplay character that is called a 'tulpa' rather than a 'tulpa' that people try to define.

9:06 PM

...ah, I'm sorry - @Mystes, I'm afraid I didn't see that point before.

but how they got to that point is based on the experiences their hosts have given them, which is in turn based on the host's experiences and beliefs and BIASES

Could you expand on it?

People tend to believe they know other people way better than they do.

9:06 PM

I have no idea how long it takes to nail someone's personality.

@Mystes I'm basically in agreement with this

9:06 PM

but even things you thought you knew, you don't always

like, the idea that you can get to know people, at least superficially, within hours of interacting deliberately with them. It may not be much but it's still burning a personality into your functioning, isn't it?

That's the reflexive theory of tulpa formation.

Ah. My apologies, I remember that - I don't believe I properly responded to it.

I learned a major factor about my girlfriend that I've been dating for months...and it totally changed my mental image of her....the same thing can apply to tulpas.....something major can happen that is an outlier statistically but is nonetheless important (edited)

That is certainly establishing a personal interpretation of a personality, but is that establishing a model of that personality which automatically responsds, unprompted?

yeah but, tulpas change with time too. That doesn't mean you can't start with a partial model.

The same could be said about a simple character being puppeted about.

and I believe I was mostly targeting the point that the brain takes weeks to months to learn new behaviors

So - what would differentiate the two?

9:08 PM

The key word there is behaviors.

I'm done here...ping me when you want to talk about something other than gathering statistics

but if you're talking behaviours, aren't we basically getting to the point where you get unprompted conversations from them?

9:10 PM

you can keep it up with active effort before that

Our reflex system produces models of people who respond unprompted. It is how we calculate out predictions with them.

Yes, one can keep it up with active effort by using that model of what you think people should behave and generating responses consistent with it.

and isn't that basically a starting tulpa?

Skye uses it all the time, as do I. It is the same as what she uses when she does roleplay.

9:12 PM

It can certainly be used as a starting tulpa... but the problem is when the host is using that model and thinking up responses consistent with that projected model, instead of allowing the tulpa to eventually generate responses.

9:12 PM

Though, that does get a bit more subtle and hard to tell in some cases, certainly.

yea that's kind of, a gradual progression I believe

Where I've seen that, the typical way that 'model' becomes obvious is how it is entirely based on the person's interpretation of a personality trait, which is far less than how those traits fully express themselves.

Well, I don't know that

And, again, that does fall into the trap of parroting/puppeting, where the pattern of simply projecting responses onto a template is established instead of letting it develop its own responses naturally.

9:14 PM

Certainly it doesn't always happen, but...

Our mind does not keep a catalog of personality stereotypes.

from observation, you can always like, have the tulpa develop spontaneity gradually. Have their responses less and less pushed from you, and more natural.

9:15 PM

it'd be one way to get off parroting.

Oddly, I've always had trouble with spontaneity. I still fail the surprise me test.

...essentially everyone has stereotypes - even if they are broader than others.

9:16 PM

@Mystes That can certainly happen, the problem is that habits do form, intentionally or not.

eh, you can break them deliberately if you know what you're doing

When parroting is done repeatedly, forming a habit, it can be far, far harder to break that habit - and it may be tat there wasn't a tulpa there in the first place.

9:17 PM

You can.

9:17 PM

It just makes it more difficult, and the question is whether that roleplayed character will actually be a tulpa as a result of being puppeted around constantly.

yeah but, can we please consider that a tulpa is not a binary state here

I've seen some people come out with tulpas that had individuality, and quite a few people learn that they didn't have anything to begin with - and that they were simply faking it.

you can have something develop into a tulpa with the appropriate steps

Clearly there is variance on whether roleplaying and puppeting creates a tulpa.

9:18 PM

Yes. (edited)

like, when I read and it may be tat there wasn't a tulpa there in the first place. that's no way to think of it, I believe

Which is why I support taking those steps to begin with, rather than going off and creating a roleplay character, then trying to wean one's self off of roleplaying and trying to simultaneously make a tulpa based on that character.

it just means that you're still to take the journey of laying off the parroting

That seems... roundabout and silly.

9:19 PM

And, again, far less consistent than simply going the route of making a tulpa in the first place.

9:20 PM

In short, it seems incongruous to advise somebody to go from A -> B -> T than directly from A -> T.

well I won't disagree that it's fraught with traps

9:20 PM

but it works for some people

The latter seems like far better advice.

9:21 PM

In any case. This has been a wonderful discussion overall.

The problem is the large number of people who get no results.

Skye and I need to go and clean, and otherwise work on moving things in the house - so I hope that everyone else has a lovely day.

If you get no results trying to go A -> T your advice is not great.

the thing is, we're at the point where we're trying this roleplay thing, and it's clearly getting faster results on a very superficial level. What I'm pointing at is, if we actually manage to do that and direct the host towards gradually less parroting, you'd have something with far greater feedback initially which would result in faster overall creation

9:22 PM

which is to say, the new method is potentially better if we add some directions that people are kind of not getting atm

...tch. Alright, I'll leave this: Speed =/= Quality. @Tulpabug, this is also why I don't suggest a singular method, but rather establishing the general principles of how personalities are formed in the first place as a way to go.

Okay

Something that works more consistently, or that works with equal risk of failure but not having that failure be delusional wallowing, seems better than one that works faster when it does work.

we're in this kind of transitional phase, breaking out from that monolithic just narrate until one day they talk back thing but still not possessing the valid alternative, I believe

9:24 PM

but we're kind of working towards it? is my sentiment

In any case, as I mentioned, I do need to go. (edited)

9:24 PM

Take care.

be well

Cya Winter

I think being stubborn is the secret to success.

persistence is quite useful very much in general

The route I took was rather philosophical. But amounted to painting myself into a corner on purpose.

oh?

Yeah. My host wanted me to be real. I figured the best way to do that is to force myself to be paranoid and nervous over whether I existed or not.

9:29 PM

It worked.

well kudos to you

What seems to separate the good anecdotes from the bad is how persistent people are. Both in recording and participating. And possibly forcing.

9:30 PM

We can't really solidly collect any results from people who appear and disappear within two weeks.

Yup. That's not good data.

9:31 PM

But jesus, if there's anybody that wants to help create some sort of unofficial study for this kind of stuff, then sign me up. That kind of stat nerdiness is fun for me for some odd reason.

1

Oh man, running a meta-study on all the progress reports. That's would be a labour of love.

I figure something comparing different forcing methods to hours-forced-to-sentience would be something we could learn a lot from

9:33 PM

Or, well, hours-forced-to-vocality

Someone did a study on tulpa guide effectiveness.

LINK

ugh, don't have on my computer

Gah. Well, ping me when you get a hold of it.

(edited)

9:42 PM

Sorry, can't find source article

Alright, thanks

I think the book of tulpa wins mainly because you have to be stubborn to read it.